The DocLab at the International Documentary Filmfestival Amsterdam (IDFA) was started in 2007 by Caspar Sonnen, and it’s very similar to the New Frontier programming at Sundance as it’s looking at how what new forms of storytelling is emerging from the affordances of emerging technologies like VR, AR, and AI. Sonnen cites John Grierson’s definition of documentary is the creative treatment of actuality” as the underlying guidance for what an “immersive documentary” could be. Rather than capturing footage of real life events, a lot of the projects at DocLab use emerging technologies to be able to catalyze a very specific phenomenological experience with the participating audience through calling on memories, cultivating unique social dynamics and interactions, recontextualizing space through location-based augmented reality stories, and a whole class of experiences that typically fall within the categories of immersive theater, biographical memoir, or ice-breaking social games.
I talk with Sonnen about the history of DocLab, the trends of immersive storytelling, and the evolution of virtual and augmented reality as storytelling mediums. We also cover some of the experiential highlights of the conference, and I provide a wrap-up at the end of some of my other experiences that I had there as well.
LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE OF THE VOICES OF VR PODCAST
This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.
Music: Fatality
Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. So I was in Berlin in November and on the way home I had a layover in Amsterdam and it was a 23-hour layover. which is kind of like the perfect layover time because it gave me a full day to be able to do something in Amsterdam. And it just so happened that there was a VR event that was happening. There was the International Documentary Festival of Amsterdam. And they have a special section there called DocLab, which I imagined that I was just going to go see a bunch of 360 videos and lots of what you typically think of as documentary. And it wasn't like that at all. It was totally avant-garde and experimental and really pushing the concept and idea of what is an immersive documentary. So Kasper Sonnen founded DocLab in 2007, and he's been continuing to do all these different experimentations of looking at these new emerging technologies and seeing how the forms of storytelling are changing and evolving. It's really kind of equivalent to what Shari Frillo has been doing with the New Frontier section of Sundance. Castler's been doing that since 2007. So I had a chance to actually see like five VR experiences. I did an AI dinner. I got to check out a bunch of all the other experiences that were there and also did like three interviews while I was there as well. It was like a whirlwind tour of really just diving deep into these different immersive experiences. And so I'm going to unpack some of the takeaways that I had from other experiences that I had there, but I'm going to, first of all, feature some of the thinking and ideas from Kasper Sonnen as he's trying to make sense of what's happening with these new emerging technologies and what kind of new forms of storytelling are emerging. So, that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So, this interview with Kasper happened on Monday, November 19th, 2018, at the IDFA DocLab Festival in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:13.725] Caspar Sonnen: My name is Casper Sonnen. I'm head of New Media at IDFA, the International Documentary Film Festival in Amsterdam. And in 2007, I started a program there called IDFA DocLab, which was a way to explore documentary storytelling in the age of the interface, as we then called it. basically figuring out if documentary is a genre or an art form that can happen across various disciplines, from film to photography to written word, non-fiction writing. What happens if you then look at undefined art forms? What happens if you look at something like stuff made for the web that is not just distributed on the web, but made for the web? What if you look at documentary theater? What if you look at documentary installations, documentary performances? And I think, what was it, 2010? The first time we did a documentary VR performance installation. And that's sort of the first time we... I mean, we've been looking at caves at university, like the cave setup that was here in Amsterdam and different places. And to be honest, the experiences were mostly scientific simulator type things. And I think with that experience in 2010, that sort of kickstarted it, but it felt like a clunky, you had to like, it was like hacked cameras, you had a pillow case over your head. It was really rough. The experience was amazing, but the tech was really rough, and a couple of years later, Oculus, the rest is history, I guess. We started doing a lot of immersive programming alongside interactive, and we can talk further up until where we are now.
[00:03:59.423] Kent Bye: Yeah, well, I'm curious to hear the evolution and how it's changed since it began because I know that Nani de la Peña, with the type of immersive journalism that she's been doing, she would take audio that she would record and then recreate these CGI scenes within virtual reality so you could have this spatial and embodied experience of this audio piece and then I'd say that you know once the 360 video came about and a lot of the 360 videos of documentaries seem to be a whole phase and this year at the doc lab seems to be a lot of computer generated stuff, but also like Phenomenological experiences that are less about you pointing the camera outward But you pointing the experience inward to see what kind of experiences you can start to cultivate which I think is an interesting orientation shift, almost like a Copernican revolution of rather than objectively recording something on the outside, you're subjectively looking at what's happening inside of you. So I'm just curious if you could kind of trace that evolution of where you've been and where you are now.
[00:04:57.854] Caspar Sonnen: That's such a good question. With many, many entry points and exit points, but I mean, if I think it has to do a lot with definitions. What is documentary? I think, especially in the US world, documentary has been a bit of a dirty word. It's been connected to educational stuff, it's been connected to... Well, at best, it's like Michael Moore, entertainingly, Michael Moore, Super Size Me type films. But there's a lot of people, like I remember when we invited Ira Glass in, what was it, 2009 to come to the festival and he had never heard of it. And he was like, oh, it's a documentary film festival. Ah, documentary, boring. And I was like, how do you even see this American life not as documentary? It's like, oh, but we do storytelling. And I suddenly realized, oh, yeah. And if you look at festivals in the US, they often have like a narrative competition and a documentary competition, which to me, I understand it, but it doesn't make sense to me. How is a documentary not narrative? 90% of documentaries are narrative. 10% of documentaries that are non-narrative. are actually very poetic. It's really how you frame it. When we started the DoClap program, we pondered this question a lot. What are we going to look at? What are we going to make a program on? We looked at what excites us. It's unknown things. It's new art forms that we hadn't seen before. Then we tried, what is a documentary game? Is that possible? When is that possible? You can look at Grierson's old definition of documentary, which I still think is a really good one, is the creative treatment of actuality. That can be anything. It doesn't have to be narrative. It can be experiential. It can be performative. It can be participatory. It can be interactive. It can be assembled, remixed from archival footage. And if you look at the history of documentary, if you look at the wealth of what's out there in terms of documentary art, just in cinematic art, it's all over the place. It can be anything. I think basically we applied that documentary definition to non-linear film media. That's how we framed it. So that's what we've been doing from the beginning, in that sense. I think the first year we had an interactive documentary that was made for the web, started with the question, you just died, do you want to know what happens next? You could click no, and it would send you to Google. Like, OK, bye. You could say yes, and a movie started with a very thick French voiceover saying, so your cold body is now being transported to the morgue. And it would take you on this journey where the questions you got were questions like cremation or burial. Do you have a will? And if you said like, no, I don't have a will, oh, then you're probably less than 40 years old because people under 40 don't have a will. The content you saw in this fictionalized narrative journey, the content you saw was documentary photography footage made by an artist who stayed a year at a funeral house. The journey you made was decided by you. You would answer truthfully. And as a result, it's a deeply intense documentary narrative experience. Those types of experiences have been all over. It's not just journalism or education or different types of things. I think, though, that it is definitely true that with immersive media, audiences are starting to become more open to these types of experiences. If you look at everything by David O'Reilly, The Game Everything, those types of exploratory, not storytelling, but story-finding experiences are things that are on the rise, and that's great. I think it's going across different platforms, bigger audiences are starting to feel comfortable with exploring and not just being told what to think or being told where to watch. I'm going from here to there, but I think you mentioned 360 video. I think in the early days of 360 video, you had that cliche question of like, how do filmmakers tell their audience where to watch? I think shortly thereafter, 360 video was proclaimed dead. Whereas I think in the last couple of years, in terms of 360 video, yes, it's a clunky medium. Yes, it's a limited version of what VR can be. However, the solution of where to tell the audience where to watch often is just give them more time. The essence of the medium of a 360 video is that you are allowed to watch anywhere. If you want someone to watch specifically within that rectangle of the video sphere, make a film. Make a linear flat film. It's fine. It doesn't have to be VR. Like a lot of early media development is often discredited just because it's not done well. So in that sense, I think there is a lot of interesting exploration happening in documentary just as much as in fiction or games.
[00:10:16.487] Kent Bye: Yeah, I guess I came and started watching experiences and I honestly forgot that I was at a documentary festival because it was like very similar to a lot of other experiences and so I've been having my own way of thinking about like the Typical hero's journey as more of this kind of young expression of making choices and taking action of either the hero and that there's this competing like yin archetypal journey, which is much more about your sense of embodied presence, your sense of emotional presence. And it's centered on you as an individual, but it's also not about becoming the hero and individuation. It's more about ego disillusionment, where it's about you becoming connected to something that's larger than yourself. And so you're seeing the interconnectedness of all things. But I feel like the forms of what that looks like is not well-defined. It's almost sub-symbolic, and people are still exploring it. But as you're curating these different experiences, I'm just curious how you think about it, how you make sense of it, and how you see the different trends of what something is tapping into, and maybe if there's any specific examples of pieces here that are like, oh, this thing is something that is really using the affordances of what this medium can do. And just curious to hear your thoughts on that.
[00:11:25.152] Caspar Sonnen: Yeah, I think there's, I mean, specifically VR, if you mean specifically VR, I think because we're having a bit of issues always with like, where does VR begin and end? But I think a work like the Collider that we have here by May Abdallah and Amy Rose from the Anagram Collective. I think that's a really, really strong project where you can see that they are not taking a story that they want to tell anyway and applying it to the medium of VR because of that's what someone wanted or that's where they thought it would be interesting to explore. They're also not VR obsessed and thinking like, okay, we have this VR technology now, whatever, what can we make with this that fits in the box or fits in this headset? They actually really, really look at what is VR and To a certain extent, the essence of it right now is it's a television strapped to your face with controllers to interact with the world that you then enter visually and physically. And they were really looking at like, so what does that mean? The question of VR that you're closed off from the world around you. That's often seen as a flaw of VR. It's often seen as like, yeah, that's why AR is like, that's a problem that AR will solve. I think they're just two different things. And I think one of the reasons VR took off was because it closed you off from the world around you. Imagine a book. It's the same thing. You hold it in front of your eyes and it closes you off from the world around you. Your phone does the same thing. Your television set does the same thing. Most successful media actually disconnect you from the world around you so that you can actually really forget your body, become part of a story, an experience. Enneagram really play with that and make it a two-person experience without ruining the experience for those who are about to do it in future festivals. It's a two-person experience where one person has the headset and the other person has the controllers. That's not what the VR device was intended for. That's the type of artworks that we get very excited about. What can you do if you bastardize the technology, if you use it in the wrong way? And then try to make compelling experiences possible. This is what the direct cinema documentary filmmakers like Albert Maisels and Frank Wiseman were doing when they took old military lightweight cameras and started to film documentary films with it. This is what John Cassavetes did when he took those same cameras and then started to film sort of hybrid fiction documentary movies with his friends. This is what Lars von Trier did with his Dogma 95 when he took handicams and did basically the same thing. Use a technology that it's not intended for. That's what a lot of great artworks do. So those are the ones that excite me.
[00:14:22.452] Kent Bye: Are there any other trends that you see of where the interactive or immersive documentary is at now and where you see it going?
[00:14:30.978] Caspar Sonnen: We had our Think Tank event today and I think it was interesting to listen to some of the people who've been active in this field. longer than VR. People like Arnaud Collinard of now Atlas 5, who did Notes on Blindness, but before that did things like Typewriter, an interactive installation about typefaces, or The Zone, an interactive photojournalism web documentary. It's interesting to see how a lot of people are opening up to not just VR. I think VR has gone through a very healthy existential crisis in the last two years. Just like any exciting new medium, it isn't going as fast as we want it to go. The people who are in it for the money either make a quick buck and sell, or they make a wrong investment, or at some point the reality check happens. Let's face it, VR devices as they are now are getting better and better and better. They're still itchy as hell after 45 minutes. They're still heavy. We're still not there. And I don't mean in terms of like full body immersion, but I mean in terms of just the clunkiness of the technology. The bigger problem is creatively, I think. In the few years that the hype was at its maximum, the content wasn't there. Now we're seeing it starting to be there. There is a lot more than just Notes on Blindness or some of the other early masterpieces. And increasingly so, like the technology is becoming so widely accessible now, there's been so many mistakes that have been made. I really feel like people like Nonny de la Pena, people like Chris Milk, there's been so many giants that artists can like stand on their shoulders. I'm getting really excited about the medium, maybe commercially less so, but I think as a lot of artists at our event today also said, we are actually becoming more transparent in the industry that our next project is either going to be very experimental, Maybe it doesn't even include a headset and it's just some machine learning driven device that's hidden somewhere in a room and you don't even know whether you are in a physical space mediated by a voice or you're in a virtual space. I don't know. I think the boundaries are being blurred increasingly and that's exciting.
[00:17:02.442] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you think is the ultimate potential of virtual and augmented reality, all these immersive technologies and what they might be able to enable?
[00:17:12.875] Caspar Sonnen: I think looking at it from a broader view of interactive and immersive media, whether it's an app or augmented reality, or it's just a flat screen that you interface with, or whether it's just audio or a formative installation, all those things. I think the ultimate potential is an amazing medium for spatial, physical, embodied storytelling and experiences. I don't know whether or how that includes a headset in the far, far future. I do very strongly believe that there will always be a thing that we apply to our face, even if it's just a contact we put into our eyes. Like a lot of speculation around where VR could go is like we're at that point where we don't know the difference anymore between the virtual and the real. I think the moment we don't know that anymore, like we really don't know that anymore, that becomes such a speculative space that maybe we're already there, I don't know, maybe we're dreaming, maybe this conversation is not happening, maybe I'm still asleep, maybe I took the wrong pill, maybe... Maybe we are all AI renderings of some thought process happening in the past. I don't know. If that happens, it's kind of like being asleep or being dead. So that is the philosophical side that I can't touch. That's just too big for me to think I can comprehend that. I actually think VR can be a great medium, and it will always be a thing that you choose to put on or take off. Otherwise, it's really hard to be a medium. Think like something of social media or like the virtual space around us. We're already in virtual space, right? Like, we're physically here, but my phone is buzzing in my pocket. I know that there's other people now searching for me, or you have a flight you have to catch. Like, there's these different layers. I think a great medium is always contained and confined. It's a finite experience in the end. You have to be able to step back to the real world. Whether it's a book, a newspaper, a poem, a film. If it doesn't end, it's also hard to enjoy it because there's no before and after. Like looking for what's the limit. I mean, I guess in the end, like the question to me, I don't know what the answer is of where VR will go, but I always feel that a way to get to that answer might be to think of what VR doesn't do. Because the problem to me with VR is that we add body suits. Oh, but now I can't walk. Add a treadmill. Oh, but now I can't smell. Add odor. Hate sensors. And we get to this point where we're just adding, adding, adding to create this perfect simulation of reality. But you're never going to get there. And if you do, you're dead. So you're dreaming. So you don't even know. Whereas if you flip it and you say, what is VR not good at? What it doesn't do? I don't know that question yet, because it's so much in development, the answer to that question. Because VR is developing so fast, it's hard to say what it is incapable of. But if you look at a book, for instance, a book doesn't have pictures usually. That's why your brain creates the images. That's why a book is so much more immersive in certain ways than a film. That's why when you watch the film of a book you read, it usually disappoints because the pictures don't connect, or the pictures are wrong. What's great about a film? A film, as opposed to theatre, is not live. They're there on a screen, but you know they're not there there. So you can really look at the actors, you can really be a voyeur, you can really be there. That's why you cry so easily with a great film. With VR, maybe the fact that you're really isolated from the world around you is something where the power of that medium lies. That's why I mentioned Collider as a work where they're playing with that. Maybe the reason everybody's posting pictures of their friends in VR headsets is because it's really creepy to make eye contact. When somebody wears a VR headset, you can actually take a picture of them and stare at them without them seeing you. Maybe that's part of the joy of VR. Like, maybe it's just a blindfold element. Like, I think all these different parts of it, maybe will answer where VR can go. I don't know.
[00:21:36.572] Kent Bye: Awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. So that was Caspar Sonnen. He's the founder of DocLab at the IDFA. That's the International Documentary Festival in Amsterdam. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that first of all, well, this definition by John Greeson that documentary is the creative treatment of actuality. I had never heard of this statement before. And as I thought about it, I think it makes sense. I mean, when Casper was talking about the differences between what people typically think of narrative and documentary, there's a difference between what we classify as fiction and nonfiction. And usually that is, how did you generate the source material? Did you take a video camera out and then capture something that was actually happening in reality and then somehow edit that together? That's the creative aspect, but really you're starting with documenting something that's already happening. and then you're editing it together. That's typically what I've thought of as a documentary, in that when you are doing a narrative, you are actually constructing the story, you're doing some sort of really creative treatment of that, but then you're hiring actors and you're scripting it, and it's a completely different production process. So logistically, I think it makes sense in some ways for how there's been this traditional difference between the documentary and the film. And what I really took away from seeing these different experiences at the doc lab was how you could consider so many of these different experiences that you have in with the virtual reality that that could actually be defined as a creative treatment of actuality. And in this case, the actuality is not something that is being captured and being presented to you, but the actuality is just your lived experience. It's your phenomenological experience. And so if you start to shift like actuality to be like, well, how can you actually start to craft and curate specific experiences? Then the whole genre of documentary just completely opens up into immersive theater into what can you do with these different immersive experiences and virtual reality? How can you use artificial intelligence to start to mediate these different interactions? And so there seems to be this focus on phenomenology, this direct experience of what type of crazy experiences can you start to have? And so I just wanted to kind of walk through some of the experiences I had a chance to do at the DocLab, just to give you a sense. So one that comes to mind immediately, the piece was called, I've Always Been Jealous of Other People's Families. And so I walk into this room and there's like three other people. We sit down at a table and there's like a camera that's recording us. And we have this silhouette of a digitized version of us being projected onto the wall. and then we have these dinner plates and we are then having on our plates words and scripts that we're supposed to play and this little interaction I happen to be the father with two kids and a wife and it's instructing us to say these different interactions and there's some artificial intelligence that is listening to what we're saying. And I didn't actually know what degree to which what we were saying and how we were saying it, how they were doing some sort of emotional sentiment analysis, or if that was somehow changing the different script that was actually being presented to us. I didn't get a chance to talk to the creators to see what was going on, but that was the experience. It was like this weird, immersive theater exploring the dynamics of a bunch of strangers sitting in a room pretending to be families with like this weird deconstructed artistic depictions of a silhouette of us while we're talking to AI technologies. So that's one example. Another example was Ross Goodwin. He is a creator who you may remember that he created this piece called Sunspring where he fed all of these sci-fi scripts and created this AI generated script, which then had Thomas Middleditch from Silicon Valley be one of the actors, but the humans had to come in and actually add meaning to something that was otherwise kind of nonsensical. And the takeaway was that there's a collaborative element where the AI is actually in collaboration with the humans and it takes both of them to really create some sort of piece of art. So Ross has continued to do this line of work and he actually went on this epic road trip where he has this AI and he has these different cameras on the car and he has the AI start to take input from what's happening in the context and environment around him. I think he fed in a corpus of other literature as well, but it was basically like this Gonzo journalist AI project where he's driving down the road and capturing all these different pieces of insight and poetry that this computer was writing and then compiling it into an entire book. So that was the project that actually won the best experience there that was at the doc lab. And it's really like asking all these deeper questions about what is the role of authorship? What is the role of humans in the creative process? And as we move towards generative types of stories, then what's that line between the authorial control and the generative nature of AI and this interplay between AI and the human? So anyway, there's all these really interesting questions. I actually ordered the book and I hope to dive into it more and eventually catch up with Ross to be able to unpack his whole experience, which it sounds like a pretty epic trip where he was on this road trip with AI which was actually kind of spitting out on receipts all this different text that was then compiled into a book that you can get. It's basically a book that was written by AI. One of my favorite experiences there was called Collider and I'm hesitant to go too much into it other than to say that They started to really paint the experience with my own memories. They had me start to imagine different experiences in my own life, and then there was the different dimensions where I was interacting with both the experience as well as with other people. So it was a very, again, interesting project where this was one of the first experiences that I saw at DocLab and you know I'm used to seeing a bunch of experiences at like Sundance and it's kind of typical to what I see at these types of gatherings and festivals which is kind of these weird art projects that are cultivating these different interactions and experiences and try to really hone in and base the story upon my own experiences, giving this stark environment that is trying to evoke these different archetypal dimensions of my own experience. And then it's up to me to be able to start to fill in those gaps and to follow the prompts of how I'm supposed to be following directions of this larger journey that I'm being taken on. But again, like this creative treatment of actuality, it's using my own experiences, my own phenomenology, my own memories to start to have these other social interactions that are being generated. And so the Duck Lab, I think, is gathering in all these different artists and creators that are interested in not necessarily producing these traditional documentary films that some of them come from that documentary background, but it's much more about like, how do you actually craft unique human experiences that are mediated by these emerging technologies? And that, you know, I think a big takeaway for me is that the ultimate potential of virtual reality kind of goes back to these different domains of human experience. And so how can you use the technology to be able to cultivate and hone into these different specific domains of human experience that then are allowing us to either, you know, be more connected to other people or more connected to ourselves or the world around us in different ways. And so given this more liberal definition of what the documentary medium is, I think it starts to catalyze a lot of ideas for where this medium could go in the future. And I think it was also interesting to hear a little bit of history from a film perspective of how what Casper's really interested in is people who are taking the VR technology and starting to bastardize it and use it in ways that actually weren't intended. And that's where a lot of the innovation and artistic flair of seeing that this is available and possible, like he was mentioning, Albert Maisel, as well as Frederick Wiseman, who took these cameras that were designed for the military to be able to do this documentary footage of the war. But that mobility of those technology was then used to kickstart the cinema verite and documentary film movements and catalyze this new genre of film. So I think similarly there's an emerging genre of these types of experiences of immersive media and I would call it more of a phenomenological type of Yin archetypal journey that's more about trying to center you and your embodied experience and your emotional experience and try to craft an experience that allows you to maybe tap into the deeper archetypal dimensions of the human experience. So a big open question is, is it possible for you to have a VR experience that feels like the experience of somebody else? Now, I think there's going to always be limitations in terms of like the neural networks in your brain and being able to actually see the world in a very specific way that's based upon your own life experiences. Like that, I think is going to be a very hard problem that we're never going to get to that level, or at least. it's going to be very difficult. But can we start to replicate different aspects of the quality of an experience, the character of an experience, the context of the experience, and the story of an experience? And I suspect that all of those things are completely possible to be able to start to break down dimensions of the human experience into these universal aspects of the human experience. And I think that's where art has always been, is to take people's individual experiences and then start to try to translate them into these universal forms that really resonate with people. And we've been able to see that within music and storytelling. And I think within the realm of virtual reality, I really saw that this was a community of people starting to really come together and explore what's possible with mediating these types of experiences. Now, Sundance is going to be coming up next month, and I'm going to be there seeing all the latest experiences. And to me, this is the beginning of the new cycle of the year where I get to see what a lot of the people have been working on. It's kind of like a opportunity for the next innovations and breakthroughs and trends to really start to be laid down. And I think it really is these artists and these avant-garde creators who are really trying to look at what the affordances of the medium are. And they're not necessarily worried about creating something that's going to be monetized. They just want to see what's even possible. That's what I really appreciate with going to some of these festivals like this is that you get to see some of the unique affordances of the medium that you may not see if somebody is trying to just, you know, create something that's going to sell a certain amount and be profitable. But if you just look at it from the sense of, okay, we've got this new communications medium, what can we do with it? And how can we like mediate people's experiences to be able to tap into something that gives them something that they would never have access to otherwise. And that's what I find so fascinating. So I hope to go back through a lot of the different interviews that I've done over the past year or two that have really dug into some of the different storytelling dimensions of virtual reality. And I hope to get a lot of those out before I go and see whatever the latest and greatest things that are happening within the realm of virtual reality at Sundance that are coming up. But I really had a great time at the doc lab in Amsterdam. And I have a couple of other interviews talking to the creator of false mirror, as well as pilgrim, which was a augmented reality experience where you're basically walking around the streets of Amsterdam while you were listening to an augmented experience. And that was being reactive to whether or not you were walking or not. And so just the different dynamics of this location based augmented reality audio experience. That was a whole narrative and story that I'll be diving into and backing as well. as well as a creator from Iran who has created this great little world called FalseMirror. I'll be talking to Ali Aslami, breaking down both like what's it like to be a VR developer from Iran where you can't actually legally get access to VR technologies. So how did that work? That's a pretty fascinating story that I was able to capture there at IDFA as well. So that's all that I have for today. And I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do tell your friends to spread the word and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener supported podcast. And so I do rely upon your donations in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. Thanks for listening.